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Prole
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 86
Location: London UK
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 Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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From Rachel North's blog when she posts about giving evidence to the GLA London Bombings Review 23/3/06 http://rachelnorthlondon.blogspot.com/
| Quote: | Thursday, March 23, 2006
Ready to speak out
9 July: Gave details to police hotline and brief statement when it came out on the news that the bomb was where I was standing, by first set of double doors of carriage one. It wasn't, it was by the second set of doors of carriage one.
10 July: Gave 4 hour police statement to 2 police officers who came to my garden. Handed over my 7th July clothing for forensic examination plus diagram of where I think the bomb was. They then confirmed I was right about the bomb.
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7 days to correct the information that they gave out, and yet the Met were still saying on the 13th July:
| Quote: | One week anniversary' bombings appeal
Police Appeal for assistance
One week on from the four explosions in central London that killed more than 50 people and injured hundreds, the Metropolitan Police Service is renewing its appeals for witnesses and information.
Recap
On Thursday July 7, four devices exploded in London.
Explosions on three Underground trains occurred within seconds of each other at approximately 0850.
The explosions were on:
Circle Line train travelling from Liverpool Street to Aldgate station. The device was in the third carriage of a train approx. 100 yards into the tunnel.
Westbound Circle Line train coming into Edgware Road station, approx. 100 yards into the tunnel. The explosion blew a hole through a wall onto another train on an adjoining platform. The device was in the second carriage, in the standing area near the first set of double doors.
Piccadilly Line train travelling from Kings Cross to Russell Square, approx 600 metres into the tunnel. The device was in the first carriage, in the standing area near the first set of double doors.
http://cms.met.police.uk/news/major_operational_announcements/terrorist_attacks/one_week_anniversary_bombings_appeal
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We know from Rachel's posts on Urban 75 that she wasn't sure where the explosion was and that after her interview with anti-terrorist police she states:
| Quote: | | The tube tunnel was very narrow here, and the train was very crowded, which was why most of the people were killed and hurt at the back of carriage 1/ beginning of carriage 2. |
Yet Steve Lovegrove was standing at the front of carriage 2 by the adjoining door to carriage 1, and states in a comment on my blog that:
| Quote: | | I was the only person injured in the 2nd carriage. The damage was concentrated in the rear third of the 1st carriage. This is all in my account even if it isn't clear. The 2nd carriage was damaged though as the end of it took the force of the blast coming from carriage 1. |
http://stevelovegrove.blogspot.com/2006_02_01_stevelovegrove_archive.html
A report from the 3rd carriage states:
| Quote: | Eamon Spelman, 47, a carpet dealer, was a passenger on the King's Cross train who was in the third car, behind the two most seriously damaged.
"MY whole body was shaking. I felt like I was being electrocuted.
"The guy next to me lost his leg. I could see the bone. I was trying to help him, trying to keep him awake. Another guy opposite was slumped over someone else. He was dead." |
http://www.sundayherald.com/50709
Perhaps it's time for a FOIA request to the MPS to confirm where exactly on the carriage the explosion was and why no correction has been published. Police incompetence, possibly, or something else?
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In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell |
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Prole
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 86
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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On March 26th I sent the following FOIA request to the Metropolitan Police:
1. Why does the police website still show that the explosion on the Piccadilly Line train on 7th July 2005 happened by the first set of double doors on carriage one?
2. What was the number of the train and carriage of the Piccadilly Line train that the explosion happened on on 7th July 2005?
3. The police website states that two trains were involved in the incident on 7th July 2005 at Edgware Road, when the blast tore through a tunnel wall into a train on an adjoining platform. Was anyone injured or killed in this other train?
4. Have details of the type of explosives and detonators used in the 4 incidents on 7th July been officially released?
5. Was a second controlled explosion carried out on a device found on the Number 30 bus in Tavistock Square on 7th July 2005?
I will post their response as soon as I receive it.
http://www.met.police.uk/information/metric/index.htm
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Kier
Joined: 07 Jan 2006
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Since it turns out that Rachel wasn't even banned from the nineeleven forum, it looks like the last couple of pages of discussion have been quite pointless.
Rachel, by her own admission, finds it impossible to view this event as anything other than a personal tragedy affecting only the people directly involved, whereas the majority of us observe it in the context of a world event. I do most definitely keep in mind how the people involved would have been affected by what happened, but if we can't move on from a survivor's personal perspective then I don't believe that we can ever examine this situation objectively.
On page 10 of this thread, two posts that I addressed directly to Rachel remain unanswered despite her numerous visits to this topic since then.
Rachel finally acknowledged my question of how on earth those men could have got a train from Luton to London between the time of 7.22am and 8.26am, considering that the earliest train they could have caught would have been the 0725, which would not have allowed them to reach Kings Cross mainline station at the time of 0826, when the police say they were there. Even if one allows for them catching a train that should have arrived at Luton station earlier but because of the delays did not reach Luton until after 0722, the very heavy delays, owing to a signal problem at West Hampstead, would STILL not have got them to London in time to be caught on CCTV at the previous mentioned time of 8.26am, and moreover, not allowed them time to catch the trains that were later bombed.
Rachel's response to that question was the bald little answer "7.20am", with no further clarification, despite me later asking for it, and then overshadowed by its following sentence
| Quote: | | "Plus, you know, the compelling fact that MY TRAIN WAS SUICIDE BOMBED. And a passenger queued behind the bomber, and the torso of Lindsey lay nex to passengers....but what, pray, do you suggest?" |
As I tirelessly point out, it has not been established as a fact that those trains were 'suicide bombed' and so it doesn't compel me.
The witness who queued behind Lindsay and said he later recognized his face from the news reports failed to get onto the carriage which was bombed. Instead, he had to get onto the one behind. This suggests that Lindsay himself would barely have managed to squash himself on to a crush capacity train, yet in approximately 40 seconds managed to force himself down to the end of the first carriage where the bomb exploded - not, as was incorrectly reported, by the first set of double doors.
Regarding the instance of the second witness Rachel speaks of, who was laying next to Lindsay's torso; I have asked twice now how it could be that a torso - which I can only assume by it's very description was nothing more than the trunk of a body with no identifying limbs - could be so definitely verified as Lindsay's in a carriage that was, as Rachel says, in complete darkness.
As for the issue of witnesses in general, there is no witness sighting of Shehzad Tanweer, who is alleged to have bombed the Aldgate train - in fact one of the few survivors of the blasts, Bruce Lait, distinctly said he recalled nobody of Shehzad's description being where the bomb was or a large bag of the description that the men were said to be carrying.
The only witness who states he saw Mohammad Sidique Khan on the Edgware Road train was Danny Biddle. Danny says he saw Khan "pull some sort of cord" - which is at odds with the police statement that the bombs were detonated with a 'button-like device'.
Regarding Hasib Hussain, the alleged bus bomber, only two people claim to have seen him. One was a survivor of the bus bomb who recalled a man with a rucksack boarding the bus with her who also went upstairs..yet in the photographs of the bus taken within seconds of the explosion, there are at least two men on the upper decks clearly carrying rucksacks. Richard Jones, the man who had plenty to say about the 'bus bomber' in the week following the bombings, was soon proven to have not seen the bus bomber at all.
http://www.faulkingtruth.com/Articles/CommentaryToo/1037.html
In fact, I was extremely surprised and disappointed that Milan Rai, in his book '7/7 The London Bombings: Islam and the Iraq War', cited Richard Jones' testimony as an assumption that Hasib Hussain was on that bus, yet Richard Jones states quite clearly that he was on the bottom deck of the bus, behind the driver and the bomb exploded on the back of the top deck. On that basis alone it should be clear that the man Richard Jones saw was not Hasib Hussain, and that's even before you compare the inaccurate physical description of this 'agitated young man' to the CCTV picture of Hussain.
I find it astonishing that Rachel, who is obviously an intelligent person, fails to see why our questions are relevant. She makes the correct point that there is no 'official version' of this event, since it is an ongoing and uncompleted investigation, yet is quite happy to accept the guilt of the men based on these confusing witness statements, a video message which was never authenticated (as these videos often aren't, I have found) an apparent motive of hatred towards the country they considered their own, even though they displayed none of the behaviour that one would expect from young, radical Muslims previously to July 7th, and extremely weak CCTV 'evidence'.
Rachel has, on more than one occasion, demanded our versions of July 7th, as if having an alternative scenario is the only way in which one can point out that the generally accepted version may not be the correct one. We, the team at www.julyseventh.co.uk/ have put together a list of the possible hypothesis accounting for how London came to be bombed and why. Some of these even assume the culpability of the men to differing extents, so it would be inaccurate to say that we are not approaching this issue with an open mind.
Rachel is clearly a caring and compassionate person, shown by her being instrumental in establishing the KCU survivors group and the unstinting support she offers her fellow passengers. She has also written some extremely astute, thought-provoking entries in her blog, some of which I have thoroughly agreed with.
However, it is obvious that interaction with Rachel does not help anyone trying to establish the truth about July 7th, since Rachel is convinced that she is already in possession of it, and that anyone who disagrees is being insensitive to the point of mental illness or just enjoying playing some kind of elaborate game.
It has been very hard attempting to have a reasoned debate with survivors, due to their obvious and understandable trauma, and I have tried to ask questions as sensitively as possible, taking feelings into account. Despite this, Rachel seems unable to distinguish between those who have been calm and rational in their approach to her and those who have roused her anger by suggesting she is not who she says she is.
I recently stated to Rachel on this board that I continued to engage with her in the hope that something useful would result from it. Rachel has now made it searingly apparent that the only thing we could say that would satisfy her is that we are going to stop asking the questions that she finds so 'facile' and pointless. This is not going to happen, so on that basis I feel that any further interaction with Rachel is likely to be a total waste of energy.
"Men stumble over the truth from time to time, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened" - Winston Churchill |
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Catfish
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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I can't believe i just read 13 pages of this, almost completely dedicated to arguing with this rachael lady. i'm sure she believes what she says and it makes her feel better but the facts as i have researched them point to a cover-up. i totally disbelieve this suicide bomber story (return tickets?), i think visor and it's commercial confidentiallity stinks. really guys you need to stop arguing with this disturbed individual. can i quote bill hicks "anyone in advertising, kill yourself." also with the evidence mounting i'm wondering if i can even save up the money to buy my ticket to caracus before i get put in one of the 'works access' internment camps on the M6 for not having my RFID card tatooed to my head prominently enough! i hope i'm joking.
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Catfish
Joined: 04 Apr 2006
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for the "disturbed individual" bit, i just read it back and it doesn't sound very nice, and i'd hate for anyone to think i wasn't nice, i'm sure rachael is no more disturbed than the rest of us.
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alex
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: caracas |
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I think you have to spell it properly
before they'll let you in. |
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Prole
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 86
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: |
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Rachel and her dad meet Charles Clarke:
| Quote: | | I explained that I felt that I pretty much knew WHAT happened on 7th July, ( 'though I'm sure the narrative will have some interesting nuggets'), but what I was interested in was WHY July 7th happened 'because if we can understand that, we can have a dialogue and then there are seeds of hope for the future'. |
| Quote: | | I said there was a sense of frustration when you felt you had useful things to contribute but were not able to. And that though I was not part of a political group, but just a random group of people who were on a tube train, I suppose the questions I was asking were 'political'. But I also thought this was above politics and not about blame. I said I 'd consider personally moving from a public to an independent enquiry 'if things like Crevice and defence of the realm stuff meant that some parts could not be shared with the public'. But I didn't see why we shouldn't be learning all we can, and discussing it together, publicly. |
| Quote: | Mr Clarke looked thoughtful again. And then he offered to meet Kings Cross United, personally, and to come to one of our meetings, so he could listen to people's concerns and we could ask questions of him. He mentioned the media. I said KCU meetings were private and no media had ever been allowed access. And I thanked him, and said I would discuss it with the group but I personally thought that would be fantastic.
And I do. I think it is a great result. |
A great result eh ? Clarke will meet privately with KCU and answer their questions, no media will be present, so presumably the 'public' will have no idea what Charlie Boy is asked or what he answers. Well done Rachel what a great day for democracy.
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In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell |
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Rachel
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:40 am Post subject: |
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Bridget
Why don't you read the whole post on my blog, before whinging on?
http://rachelnorthlondon.blogspot.com/2006/04/meeting-home-secretary.html
And why don't you have a think about whether private meetings between officials and survivors are normally televised?
And why don't you get your head round the fact that I am campaigning for a full independent enquiry before extrapolating blog quotes to make your little point?
Oh, I remember why. You're a conspiracy theorist.  |
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Rachel
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:44 am Post subject: |
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| Quote catfish: |
| really guys you need to stop arguing with this disturbed individual. can i quote bill hicks "anyone in advertising, kill yourself."...Sorry for the "disturbed individual" bit, i just read it back and it doesn't sound very nice, and i'd hate for anyone to think i wasn't nice, i'm sure rachael is no more disturbed than the rest of us. |
If you tell people you have never met that they are disturbed and that they should kill themselves, they tend to think you are a bit of a trolling dickhead, in my experience |
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Prole
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 86
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 9:59 am Post subject: |
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A full independent inquiry Rachel or a full independent PUBLIC inquiry? An alternative is an independent PEOPLE's inquiry:
http://www.julyseventh.co.uk/
Time for us all to grow up and stop trusting that governments or agancies of the state have our best interests at heart. No more whitewashes and cover-ups it's time for the truth, however uncomfortable, to be uncovered.
Which side are you on Rachel? The truth or ...
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Rachel
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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...the truth. Not the fantasisies of paranoid conspiracy theorists. 
I don't know why you have to embellish it and look for conspiracies; the truth is quite bad enough, Bridget, without your fevered imaginings and selective readings of multi-sourced news reports and survivor testimony.
You should be very clear what I think since I see that you are a regular visitor to my blog. But here is some more from the link you quoted when Mr Clarke and my father and I all met recently.
| Quote: | I thanked him for his letter explaining the points that I'd raised on my blog, and I said I understood its confirmation that there were a number of internal enquiries going on behind closed doors, with police, intelligence services, politicians, 'but this debate is not just for police and politicians to have. It affects all of us, the whole country - and it is ordinary people like me who take the tubes and buses, not politicians'. And that was why I supported a public enquiry.
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Prole
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 86
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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Rachel, if you are interested in the truth why not ask for the evidence to be shown? All the CCTV images from London of these 4 young men together? One image (highly questionable) supposedly taken at Luton on 7th July, 30 miles from London, is IMHO not enough evidence to try and convict them. But then you say you know what happened you just want to know why. Some of us are not that easy to fool. They have shown it for the 'no-bombs' events on 21/7 and the so-called dummy run on 28/6, show us the evidence and let them prove their case against these 4 men.
Show the evidence in the name of truth and justice.
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Rachel
Joined: 02 Jan 2006
Posts: 53
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, Bridget. I wonder if you protest outside the Old Bailey with every criminal trial there, certain the the accused must be innocent until you are shown the CCTV of them committing a crime?
I do not think the entire journalistic profession, police, Government and my fellow passengers are engaged in a giant cover-up, Bridget. I'm just not quite as paranoid as you, see.
Why don't you write to Charles Clarke yourself, or to Sir Ian Blair or the BBc with your theory that 7th July is a huge lie and a cover-up, and amazingly, the only people who are onto this are...a bunch of people who think that everything official is a huge lie and a cover up.
Funny that.
You'd think survivors would be beating a path to your door, overwhelmed with gratitude for your fearless exposure of the New world Order in action, wouldn't you? You'd think that you'd stumbled upon the scoop of the century. Somewhere, in the whole wide world there must be a proper investigative journalist who will give some credibility to your exciting claims.
But alas, no.
You might be right about the 7.40 train, and if you are, well done. But that doesn't make everything into a huge conspiracy, Bridget, they just got an earlier train. The 331/311 muddle was just a muddle. Communication, record keeping and bureaucracy has been shite, as is now being revealed in many accounts. Not everything is the unstoppable rise of the Satanic New World Order or the Zionist Lizards or the Masons or whatever you believe. British male Suicide bombers bombed public transport on 7th July. I don't know why you need to embellish this, it is quite shocking enough without making it into a sci-fi novel or V for Vendetta 2006. |
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Prole
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 86
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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Rachel you say: | Quote: | | British male Suicide bombers bombed public transport on 7th July. |
Based on one CCTV image taken at Luton 30 miles away, (an image that is almost certainly photoshopped).
Is that all the evidence it takes to convict these men?
The lack of evidence to support your theory, and yes Rachel yours is as much a theory as mine, is what makes me so suspicious of the official story. 9 months after these events and still such a paucity of evidence. If they have these images they should be in the public domain, let us make up our own minds.
I am happy to engage in debate with you Rachel but please drop all the lizard masonic shite I've never made statements like those so please stop inferring that you know what I beleive in.
Is it so difficult for you to understand that some of us just seek truth and justice?
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Prole
Joined: 03 Jan 2006
Posts: 86
Location: London UK
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| Posted: Sun Apr 09, 2006 8:51 pm Post subject: Are we Conspiracy Theorists? |
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From the July Seventh website: http://www.julyseventh.co.uk/
Are we conspiracy theorists?
| Quote: | Michael Hasty in his article The Paranoid Shift:
"In his book, "Rogue State: A Guide to the World's Only Superpower," William Blum warns of how the media will make anything that smacks of "conspiracy theory" an immediate "object of ridicule." This prevents the media from ever having to investigate the many strange interconnections among the ruling class -- for example, the relationship between the boards of directors of media giants, and the energy, banking and defense industries. These unmentionable topics are usually treated with what Blum calls "the media's most effective tool -- silence." But in case somebody's asking questions, all you have to do is say, "conspiracy theory," and any allegation instantly becomes too frivolous to merit serious attention. On the other hand, since my paranoid shift, whenever I hear the words "conspiracy theory" (which seems more often, lately) it usually means someone is getting too close to the truth." |
http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/printer_203.shtml
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