Cox Forum Cox Forum    FAQ   Search   Memberlist   Usergroups   Profile   You have no new messages   Log out [ ]  Alex's Xmas Blog: 2005.12.23 - 7/7 Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next          Cox Forum Forum Index -> Cox Blog Discussions View previous topic :: View next topic   Author Message chavez Joined: 06 Jan 2006 Posts: 15 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:17 pm    Post subject: Evidence, what a laugh, it's all 'guess work' as stated above. Back to top Rachel Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 50 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:25 pm    Post subject: The fact that all the sources add up. Multiple sources, multiple witnesses, credible investigations, as opposed to hypothetical internet conjecture with no alternative hard evidence offered to support the claims. I have seen nothing to lead me to believe the internet stories and no reason for the alternative theories to be taken seriously Let's look at the alternative theories offered - they don't even all agree. Power surges? Well, I know that's false from personal experiences and meeting other victims. Faked explosions? Again, from meeting survivors on the bus, that's rubbish - it was a bomb. Bombs under the train - no - the explosion was in my carriage, not under it. There are eye witnesses for the bombers letting off the bombs see Danny Biddle and the evidence of a fellow passenger who tried to board with Lindsey. Khan's video. CCTV images of the bombers arriving at the station. DNA. Debris. The detonator found embedded in survivors of 2 explosions. The copy cat attempt to let off more bombs by another extremist cell. The well documented and credible threat posed by existing Islamofacist groups who have a stated agenda to commit atrocities on UK soil and abraod - in the service of what they mistakenly call 'jihad', using what they call 'martyrdom operations'. The police, the investigative reporters, the emergency services officers I have spoken to. The testimony of survivors. I could go on, but in essence I have seen a few disrecrepancies - they seem to have got the 7.20am train - so what? but the essence of the thing, from multiple, numerous, sources all points to the truth of it. Last edited by Rachel on Fri Feb 17, 2006 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top Rachel Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 50 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 2:29 pm    Post subject: chavez wrote: Evidence, what a laugh, it's all 'guess work' as stated above. Guess work? You call the unceasing attentions of hundreds of reporters and police officers, detective, forensic experts, civil engineers, scientists, emergency services, witnesses, survivors 'guess work?' Why do all the 'guesses' point in exactly the same dirction? Are you seriously suggesting that the entire world media, all the witnesses, all the survivors, London Underground, the emergencuy services and the police, the forensic scientists ARE ALL COLLUDING IN A GIANT LIE? And that only you know 'the truth'? And you know this because ...let me see... you weren't there, you have no evidence but.. YOU HAVE GUESSED IT! Excellent, well done Chavez. Well, you've certainly convinced me. Back to top The Antagonist Joined: 28 Dec 2005 Posts: 12 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:20 pm    Post subject: One more time, with feeling.... Rachel wrote: The fact that all the sources add up. Multiple sources, multiple witnesses, credible investigations, as opposed to hypothetical internet conjecture with no alternative hard evidence offered to support the claims. I have seen nothing to lead me to beleive the internet stories and no reason for the alternative theories to be taken seriously Let's look at the alternative theories offered - they don't even all agree. Or, let's look at the 'official' story in which the alleged bombers caught a Thameslink train from Luton to King's Cross that did not run on July 7th, or the one that says they caught a train that arrived in London too late for them to have caught two of the bombed underground trains. Which one of those explanations seems the most logical to you, the train that didn't run, or the train that arrived too late? Rachel wrote: Power surges? Well, I know that's false from personal experiences and meeting other victims. As for the power surge story, blame the train operating companies because they were the ones that issued the story of power surges at the time of the incidents. Metronet and London Underground told us, in good faith, that the carnage on the day was caused by power surges. That some other story emerged after the number 30 bus explosion, the same bus that the Independent had the courage to use a photograph of in an article about Blair's fake terror - is a separate issue entirely. We also know, because London underground told us, that power surges on the underground can be accompanied by explosions. No conspiracy required. Rachel wrote: Faked explosions? Again, from meeting survivors on the bus, that's rubbish - it was a bomb. Perhaps you can ask them precisely when they think this photograph of the bus was taken in which there is no evidence of anybody being present at all, not even in the Kingstar-the-controlled-demolition-company-van next to the bus: Rachel wrote: Bombs under the train - no - the explosion was in my carriage, not under it. There are eye witnesses for the bombers letting off the bombs see Danny Biddle and the evidence of a fellow passenger who tried to board with Lindsey. I refer you to Prole's earlier post providing the information from you regarding the fact that the explosion was either in the carriage behind you, or several carriages behind you and your efforts to advise the authorities of where you thought the explosion had occurred. Rachel wrote: The copy cat attempt to let off more bombs by another extremist cell. Ah, July 21st, the now legendary day when the bombers had no bombs and have quite happily told us so. This is one of the few facts we've been given and which was given under oath. Hamdi Isaac, aka Hussain Osman for those with short memories - told us, under oath as part of his extradition trial in Rome, to whence he fled after the 'attack' for which he and his crew used no bombs. He said they had no bombs, just detonators and further that they intended only a demonstrative act. If you do your research, you might even find the quote where the 'mastermind' of the operation that helped them put together their fake bombs tells Hamdi, "Be careful, you might burn yourselves." The July 21st bombers had no bombs. End of story. They can never be charged for conspiracy to cause explosions, conspiracy to murder, or conspiracy to damage people and property. Nor can they successfully be prosecuted for these charges unless having no bombs and not killing anyone has been made illegal by the time their farcical case ever gets to court. They never intended to cause any explosions, just a bang, nor did they intend to kill anyone. In fact, even if they did, they didn't have explosives with which to do it but instead a mix of flour, hair lotion, nails, nuts and bolts which, I'm sure even you will agree, is a list of things that are hardly famed for their explosive properties. Think 'domestic science' instead of 'real science'. Rachel wrote: Khan's video. CCTV images of the bombers arriving at the station. DNA. Debris. The detonator found embedded in survivors of 2 explosions. Do you recognise the man in that video as Mohammed Sidique Khan? Congratulations, you've just identified a man that even his closest friends couldn't. Allow me to quote a couple of them as reported by the BBC: Quote: "I couldn't believe it to be honest. My dad phoned me up and said, 'That lad you said was alright, have you just seen that bloody video?' Even watching it didn't change my opinion about him, he was totally different." Quote: "I was just shocked because that's just not the Sid that I went to school with. That suicide video is not his natural speaking rhythm, he used to be quick. You'd say something to him he's got something witty to say back to you. You can't outdo him with sarcasm, it were a bouncing talk, he was fast, he was funny with it. That wasn't him on that video." -- Ian Barret, friend of 'Sid' since his school days Quote: "He seemed to have more white friends than he did Asian friends. He didn't hang around in groups of Asian lads, he used to hang around with groups of white lads playing football and stuff. His voice was as very soft but very well spoken, very English, a lot better English than me, no accent as such, just very good English." I can't imagine that the voice in the video sounds soft and very well spoken, or lacking in a regional accent, to someone so well versed in the art of media communications. Rachel wrote: The well documented and credible threat posed by existing Islamofaciost groups who have a stated agenda to commit atrocities on UK soil and abraod - in the servoce of 'jihad', using 'martyrdom operations'. I'll meet you half way on this - you drop the Islamo-bit of the phrase Islamo-fascism and we can agree on there being an well documented and credible threat posed by existing FASCIST groups who have a stated agenda to commit atrocities all over the world, on UK soil and abroad - in the service of 'their way of life'. If you still don't get it, read HL BILL 77 and marvel at the Parliamentary reform act. Rachel wrote: The police, the investigative reporters, the emergency services officers I have spoken to. The testimony of survivors. I could go on, but in essence I have seen a few disrecrepancies - they seem to have got the 7.20am train - so what? but the essence of the thing, from multiple, numerous, sources all points to the truth of it. You have seen few discrepancies and then go on to place the alleged bombers on a train precisely 1 minute and 54 seconds before they were apparently photographed entering the station that you now tell us they left two minutes previously. So the story goes from the alleged bombers catching a train that didn't run, or one that arrived in London too late for them to bomb two of the trains to one of them catching a train two minutes before they got to the station? Or, if you prefer, on the basis that you now tell us the alleged bombers caught the 0720 train, how do you suppose a picture was taken of them outside the station nearly two minutes after they left? Do you not think to check any of the logic or facts that should underly your writings all over the Internet? Some very dedicated independent public researchers have put a lot of time and effort into discovering a few important facts and have gone to some considerable lengths to ensure that this information exists in the public domain. You continually choose to ignore each and every one of them in favour of impossibilities, like being on an 0856 train from King's Cross that is meant to have exploded at 0850, some 6 minutes earlier. If you wish to ignore such discrepancies and the independently verified FACTS, for that is what they are, then that is your choice but you have no right to be angry at anyone else for being swayed by FACTS rather than the spin of a provably murderous and mendacious state of liars that cannot do anything other than lie. Kindly refrain from the Use and Abuse of Terror and The construction of a false narrative on the domestic terror threat. It's bad enough that the Prime Minister, state and media are guilty of this on a daily basis without having the same nonsense regurgitated ad nauseam by one of its subjects, especially from one who has suffered as a result of the state's nefarious activities about which you too appear to be less than happy. Pity the poor bastard that has to write the narrative in time for All Fool's Day. _________________ "The eternal fight is not many battles fought on one level but one great battle fought on many different levels." Back to top Rachel Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 50 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 7:42 pm    Post subject: 1. It seems they probably got the 7.20am train. 2. Power surges do not tear peoples limbs off and kill them and blow them into bits. I find this discussion abhorrent, particularly as 3 other survivors including Paul Mitchell have come onto your blog and told you how you are wrong. Here is decription of the carriage Mr Mitchell were on in the Telegraph http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/10/nlondon10.xml Quote: As more and more trapped passengers prayed in the darkness, others tore off ties and belts to use as tourniquets. Sergeant Steve Betts, of the British Transport Police, was one of the first officers to arrive, along with rescue teams, and climb into the bombed carriage. "The entire carriage was just covered head to foot, side to side, in body parts and blood," he said. "The roof had collapsed and fallen inwards and a significant number of bodies were piled up on top of each other on either side of the carriage. I couldn't see how anyone could come out alive. It is the most horrendous and awful scene I have ever seen - and I hope to God I will never see it again." Further down the track, the wounded, many with limbs missing, were begging and screaming for help. "There was one chap yelling for help," Sgt Betts said. "One of his legs was missing and the other was horribly mutilated." As rescuers stumbled amid the bodies, they were stunned by the extent of the injuries. One, who tended some of the most seriously injured, would say the next day: "I don't know what Heaven looks like, but I have just seen Hell." But worse was to come. As Sgt Betts moved further forward, he saw a girl lying on her back. "Almost all her limbs were gone and she had a horrendous burn mark on her face. I thought she was dead. I was about to walk on, in search of injured, when she opened her eyes and said: 'Help me.' " Paul Mitchell, who was in the blasted carriage, was one of its few survivors. "I held my head because I thought it was on fire," he said. "I could feel the inside of my leg, it was ripped right open." Here is Mr Paul Mitchell talking to you on your blog http://antagonise.blogspot.com/2005/07/london-77-in-response-to-bridget-dunne.html Quote: Are you an absolute freak?!?! I was standing about three to five feet away from the bomber at Kings Cross and got the back part of my lower left leg blown away - I have been off work for six months and am still having trauma counselling. You have no sense whatsoever - the idiocy of thinking this is a conspiracy quite simply boggles the mind. There are now nearly sixty families who have lost a family member and hundreds more, like my own, who have had to deal with the aftermath of this ATTACK - not a conspiracy, but an ATTACK - by terrorists. Are the almost daily events in Iraq a conspiracy? Are people merely pretending to be blown up? I am not an actor, I am an ordinary human who, like some many others, have now experienced terrorism first hand. You are a mindless dolt and in my opinion are no better than the radicals touting their idea of the "truth" in order to recruit suicide bombers. By Mitchell, at 5/1/06 11:03 Quote: Firstly, kindly retract your statement that actors were involved at all (and not in the comments section - create a new post) Secondly, stop the crap about the train carriage number as - how about this for a theory - someone mis-typed it? It's a pretty far-out theory, but there you go. Thirdly, we were there, you ere not. Conjecture, conjecture, conjecture. Consiparcy theorists are (quite simply) full of it. It dos not wash. It will not wash. Four people were recruited (brainwashed) by some evil organisation to murder regardless of race, colour or religion. If the war in Iraq was over, troops pulled out etc would attacks end? Of course not, as it is about power! The extremists would sense a weakened enemy and pummel Iraq and Wetern countries to underline their dominance. It isn't about religion, as Muslims were killed in the attacks! What do that say Sidique Khan talking about fighting for his brothers and sisters when he helped kill them? As I said above, I look forward to your retraction in a brand new post for all to see and I look forward to more holes being blown into your search for the "truth". I see my truth when I look at my leg and see a part of it missing. I hear my truth when the tinnitus from my blown-out eardrum is going strong. Other people see their truth when they saw their legs mangled from A SUICIDE BOMBER. By Mitchell, at 6/1/06 19:21 Back to top Rachel Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 50 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: Quote: Perhaps you can ask them precisely when they think this photograph of the bus was taken 3. Having seen the offence your theories cause survivors I have no intenrtion of pestering the people from the bus with your photo and your theory. I have posted here the response of Mitch so you might feel a little chagrin: I doubt it though. Quote: I refer you to Prole's earlier post providing the information from you regarding the fact that the explosion was either in the carriage behind you, or several carriages behind you and your efforts to advise the authorities of where you thought the explosion had occurred I am fed up of pointing out where I was, it has been made abundantly clear, and as I was there, I should know. Front of carriage one by first set of double doors. Bomb behind me, by second set of double doors. Mitch at the back of the carriage, lucky to escape alive. I have never said the bomb was several carriages behind me as it was in my carriage, carriage one, and I phoned in this info through to the police on the Saturday after July 7th as described in my blog. I also got the BBC to update their diagram on the website later so it was correct as it was distressing survivors. 4. The 7.20 train was late, maybe? FFS. Are you denying that there was a bomb on my train? Yes, you are. Well, there was a bomb and so you are wrong, so why should I listen to you when you can't accept reality? This is going nowhere if you insist that the bombs didn't happen. And that extremist terrorism does not exist. It does. Deal with it, please. 5. I've said I thought the bomb went off at about 8.50-am but AS I WAS BOMBED I DID NOT CHECK MY WATCH. I was preoccupied with trying to survive at the time, you see. Currently the London Assembly 7th July Review Committee minutes has it at 8.53 from the London Underground, I said either 8.50, I 've been told 8.56 and it was for ages referred to as the 8.56 train - so that is what I referred to it as initially by habit - then I asked other surviors and they reckoned nearer 8.50am - I DEFINITELY have a text to my partner at 9.16am so I think closer to 8.50, maybe 8.53 is right - because it takes 15 minutes to walk down the tracks to Russell Square. You are dealing with a survivor here, not a documentary team or a train spotter. And I have gone through it with you before, in various other places. Please understand that the time of the bombers commute to the station or the time of the bomb tends to be a lot less important to people who were there than THE FACT THAT WE WERE BOMBED in the first place. 6. Quote: Some very dedicated independent public researchers have put a lot of time and effort into discovering a few important facts and have gone to some considerable lengths to ensure that this information exists in the public domain That comes over as very pompous, Ant. I can see why I and other survivors are interested in what happened to us, but what is your excuse? Nobody asked you to undertake your 'dedicated research ' - it is your hobby. It is our reality. And stuffabout there being no bombs is pretty offensive. You have been asked to not post what is clearly nonsense so please do not get on your high horse when I and other survivors ask you just what the hell you think you are playing at? Back to top The Antagonist Joined: 28 Dec 2005 Posts: 12 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:05 pm    Post subject: Rachel wrote: 1. It seems they probably got the 7.20am train. 2. Power surges do not tear peoples limbs off and kill them and blow them into bits. I find this discussion abhorrent, particularly as 3 other survivors including Paul Mitchell have come onto your blog and told you how you are wrong. 1. So the alleged bombers caught a train, left Luton and then had their photo taken two minutes later outside the station they'd just left? Are you suggesting they utilised a time travelling Allah Akbar Inc. flying carpet for the photo opportunity which was then easily and hastily concealed in a white carrier bag? 2. You can find whatever you like abhorrent but at least abhor a reality rather than a fiction. I have never claimed that power surges tore anyone's limbs off. I merely repeated the words of London Underground who said power surges can cause explosions and, as we all know, explosions can tear people's limbs off. So in reality, there is no argument except the one you keep inventing by repeatedly not comprehending what has been written. Enough of the pre-formatted replies, I would be obliged if you would kindly answer some of the points raised in my original post. _________________ "The eternal fight is not many battles fought on one level but one great battle fought on many different levels." Back to top Rachel Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 50 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:07 pm    Post subject: Quote: Kindly refrain from the Use and Abuse of Terror and The construction of a false narrative on the domestic terror threat. It's bad enough that the Prime Minister, state and media are guilty of this on a daily basis without having the same nonsense regurgitated ad nauseam by one of its subjects, especially from one who has suffered as a result of the state's nefarious activities about which you too appear to be less than happy. No. Kindly refrain from claiming there were no bombs and I will engage with you - but I will not be bullied like this - you are wrong and you ought to be told so. Read what Mitch said again. Just read it. Read the witnesses statements, look at the pictures of the dead. Think about what you are saying. You can call yourself what you like but I have no time for your theories if you are going to claim you deal in facts and cannot accept that London was suicide bombed on July 7th. We are goign to have to agree to disagree and there's not much point in me continuing debate with you as your position is entrenched. Last edited by Rachel on Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:30 pm; edited 1 time in total Back to top Prole Joined: 03 Jan 2006 Posts: 23 Location: London UK Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:24 pm    Post subject: Rachel Just 2 minutes to read, digest and reply to the Antagonist, that's a record even for you. For the record, I have seen no evidence that would convince me that London was 'suicide-bombed'. In fact, I have a problem with the whole 'suicide-bomber' myth. I know that statement will upset you but there you go, it is what I and others believe. The need to strap explosives to one's body could well be a tactic in the Palestinian political struggle in Israel but I have seen no evidence to assume that it is an Islamic phenomenom or one that caused the explosions on the trains or bus on 7th July. As for 'Islamofascism' does 'Christian-Judeaofascism' also exist? _________________ In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell Back to top Rachel Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 50 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:32 pm    Post subject: Yes, christianity and judeaism can also be used to cloak poisonous agendas. Anything can, any religion, any political ideaology can be used to justify evil. I type very fast. I know where to look. It's not pre-formatted, it's giving a shit about the truth. And I have heard all the Antagonist's stuff before. Back to top Rachel Joined: 02 Jan 2006 Posts: 50 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 8:38 pm    Post subject: And nobody has answered Mitch. Back to top henchman Joined: 06 Oct 2005 Posts: 19 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:07 pm    Post subject: This is getting heated. Would you all be prepared to appear on camera and discuss this either together or seperately? I'd be interested in filming it. Back to top Kier Joined: 07 Jan 2006 Posts: 5 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:46 pm    Post subject: Okay, regarding the CCTV footage which should exist of these men at Thameslink and Kings X Mainline station, here are images taken of the various cameras which should have captured them as they made their journey into and across London. http://www.officialconfusion.com/77/images/cctv/cctv%20en%20route/index.html Except that apparently none of them did. Why were we being drip fed stand-alone images which prove nothing about where the men were that day, when the authorities were apparently able to provide a plethora of moving images for the supposed 'dummy-run'? http://www.officialconfusion.com/77/cctv/cctv.html Why so many images for the 'dummy-run' when nothing happened that day, and three stills - three! - for the day when we all want to know what happened? How could that have been a 'dummy-run' when they didn't even visit the stations which were later bombed and didn't even bother to get there until around midday. What evidence exists that what they did that day constituted a 'rehearsal', except that they apparently got onto a train from Luton and went to London on it? Why did the police wait until the day after the Bali bombing - another incident I might add, full of contradictions and inconsistencies - to release the picture of Hasib Hussain at Boots, Kings X, when they had surely been in possession of it since the time at which they allegedly obtained all the other footage they claim to have? Just to grab people while they were once again in shock at yet another 'terrorist outrage'? The police announced they were going to release the footage they had of the men at Kings X and then suddenly changed their minds. Why on earth should we be content to be pacified with paternalistic, patronising explanations for irregularities such as these with "Oh, but the police know what they're doing, they're not obliged to tell the public everything, just let them do their jobs" and so on? If I am expected to believe that those men bombed London that day then I want to see the evidence for it myself. Simple as that. Back to top Kier Joined: 07 Jan 2006 Posts: 5 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:48 pm    Post subject: Why have so many insidious lies been told about those men? The papers portrayed them as a group of dead beat, hate-filled, good-for-nothings with no decent futures to look forward to, presumably to make it seem more likely that they would blow themselves up. These claims turned out later to be completely untrue. Hasib Hussain had not been withdrawn from his GCSEs as the media claimed, his headmaster made a statement condemning the lies that had been told about him. http://www.leedstoday.net/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=39&ArticleID=1089949 In fact, on the day after the bombings his family received his NVQ results, where he had gained 4 out of 5 distinctions and gained a dreamed-of place at Leeds Uni. As for Mohammad Sidique Khan, where the hell was he getting the time to have his fingers in all these terrorist plots, as this commentator points out: "The BBC reported that "mastermind" Mohammed Sidique Khan himself was "secretly filmed and recorded" by British intelligence agencies in 2004. As I've said in previous parts of this series, Khan has been traced to just about every deviant Pakistani group in the free world and a series of attacks or planned attacks, yet nobody ever managed to catch him, arrest him or even stop him. In fact, earlier reports said he had been "briefly questioned" after the "fertilizer bags" incident near London, yet the wily school teacher managed to evade their grasp once again. The BBC has interviewed academic researcher Dr Rohan Gunaratna who spoke to the Bali suspect after the London bombing. The suspect said that, after Khan was hosted by notorious JI leader Hambali in Malaysia, he was taken to the Philippines to meet and train with other leaders of the group, suspected of carrying out a number of terror attacks including the Bali bombings of 2002 and 2005. So this guy is traveling to Israel, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Malaysia and now the Philippines - all while married with a young child and earning a teacher's salary. And we must remember he was considered an extraordinary teacher, who not only had the patience to deal with developmentally-challenged (retarded) children, but impressed the head of the school and local parents. He also had time to counsel local youths, lead kayaking expeditions and play cricket and football (soccer) with the kids. But at the same time he was darting around the world like some kind of Muslim Rambo?" http://weblog.ro/soj/2005-11-02.html#52423 I could list all the other lies and inaccuracies printed about these men, but the point is - if they are guilty, it shouldn't be necessary for the story to be bolstered out - the evidence should speak for itself. Except, yet again, it doesn't. If it did, we wouldn't even need to be having this discussion. Back to top Kier Joined: 07 Jan 2006 Posts: 5 Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2006 10:11 pm    Post subject: Quote: That comes over as very pompous, Ant. I can see why I and other survivors are interested in what happened to us, but what is your excuse? Nobody asked you to undertake your 'dedicated research ' - it is your hobby. It is our reality. And stuffabout there being no bombs is pretty offensive. You have been asked to not post what is clearly nonsense so please do not get on your high horse when I and other survivors ask you just what the hell you think you are playing at? That seems a really strange thing to say. It comes across like you're saying "This is our incident, belonging to the victims and survivors only, how dare you ordinary people hijack it"! Every single person on this planet has a right to research it - every single person who cares about what's happening to this world and how we're being spoon-fed more and more crap in order to justify what's looking more and more like some bizarre plan for global domination. I personally am not, and never have, suggested terrorism does not exist, or even that 'Muslim Extremists' do not exist. It just seems that they serve a very useful purpose in the convincing of the British public that we need our civil liberties removed in order to protect us from these seemingly never-ending groups of militants. They manage to conceal themselves rather well until the Government has a agenda they wish to fulfill, and then they make a very handy prop to wheel out, such as bringing Abu Hamza back into the news just before the vote on ID cards - and in order to justify our troops going over to the Middle East and strategically bombing them into submission. It is not a 'conspiracy', it is a reality, and thankfully, one that more and more people are waking up to. 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